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Thread: Yet more proof of why we should not have the death penalty

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    Default Yet more proof of why we should not have the death penalty

    Use of statistical probabilities in murder trials is proving to be an inexact science, and yet people have been convicted and spent time in prison through the use of these sometimes spurious means. It may be possible to use them to show overwhelming likelihoods that certain crimes have been committed by certain parties, but it is open to abuse and/or serious error. People who say that, if we brought back the death penalty, we would have to ensure 100% that someone is guilty are nave if they think that this is ever possible when trials are held. There is very rarely 100% certainty when a trial is needed to decide on the matter, and these cases, as well as many others that have been shown later to have been a miscarriage of justice, rule out the death penalty for me as ever being a good way of punishing murderers or any other criminals for that matter.

    BBC News - Amanda Knox and bad maths in court

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    Default Re: Yet more proof of why we should not have the death penalty

    i dont give 2 shits about amanda knox because its not our business

    death penalty should be used because of justice.

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    Default Re: Yet more proof of why we should not have the death penalty

    Even for people who it subsequently turns out they were actually innocent? It's not just about Amanda Knox (and in fact the article as relating to her is the other way around as it says that her conviction may have stood rather than being overturned) but there are other cases in particular those mentioned in the BBC article that would have been tragic if the death penalty had been applied as they would have had no way back.

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    Registered Member Major Starbold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet more proof of why we should not have the death penalty

    I believe in the death penalty.

    I also believe in todays so called civilised world the chances of a wrong conviction are slight, much better than in yesteryear.

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    ZPymsLQ - Yet more proof of why we should not have the death penalty

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    Default Re: Yet more proof of why we should not have the death penalty

    The evidence says otherwise Major. And even a slight risk is too much, in my opinion.

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    الحمد لله‎ Ben's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet more proof of why we should not have the death penalty

    You know I disagree with you on this, timey, and I'm going to disagree with you now. I'm not being arsey mate, I'm just trying to put my own view across, but I will warn you I'm going to use your own words against you, I mean no offence, my friend. So here goes... this may be a bit of a hodgepodge of points, I apologise for that.

    I love the fact you're saying that evidence can be wrong but you're using the word evidence to back up your argument against the major, mate.

    I also love the fact that whenever there is a miscarriage of justice there is the assumption the person is innocent and do you know why I love that? Because it's the same bloody system that convicted them that then said they were innocent. I often hear people question guilty verdicts but very rarely hear people question the same system setting people free for these miscarriages of justice. But that's more of a general point about human nature and how we look at our legal system.

    I don't see your link as proof of why we shouldn't have the death penalty, I see it as proof of why cases that use such statistical probabilities shouldn't be capital cases. I see nothing in your link that says capital cases should not exist.

    I agree with the major that there is a slight risk of wrong convictions (but I'd like to see the figures) generally but I disagree with him that we should be executing people when this slight risk occurs.

    As you say -
    People who say that, if we brought back the death penalty, we would have to ensure 100% that someone is guilty are nave if they think that this is ever possible when trials are held. There is very rarely 100% certainty when a trial is needed to decide on the matter
    You're contradicting yourself there. Rarely obviously doesn't mean never, so unless I'm reading it wrongly you yourself believe there are occasions when there is 100% certainty of guilt, so are you naive like me and others?

    For me it's simple, for certain crimes such as rape and murder (maybe others if I can think of them), only beyond reasonable doubt would mean a jail sentence but no doubt would mean a quick injection to kill them. That is of course if the statistics (there's a certain irony here) said that the cost of the new law would be covered by the savings on food, board etc for those who'd end up in prison. I don't know those stats so it's impossible for me to comment, but in theory I support killing certain criminals quickly and efficiently.

    Unlike the major and freebie, it's nothing to do with justice or even punishment for me, it's to do with removing people who have had their chance of life and chosen to give it up by committing the crime they have committed in order stop wasting our time and money on them. I don't want to cut rapists' balls off, I want them to not exist once convicted. I don't want to beat the shit out of murderers, I want them to die quietly and cheaply, but only those where there is no doubt.

    Also, if we're going to go into this theory of no doubt and if someone were to suggest there is always doubt about everything, I may as well bring up those who say certain things do not exist, how do we prove the lack of something? Such as a god or Jesus? If there is even the tiniest evidence, such as a holy book, regardless of how you feel that evidence is reliable or not, should that not create some semblance of doubt in the mind? Yet millions of people state categorically that there is no god. I'm not arguing for or against a god, I don't really give a shit either way, but if there is always doubt how can we ever be sure about anything? Even the lack of something. If there is always doubt in the minds of some people about everything and there can never be 100% proof, then how far do we go? Do we say that nothing is real because of this doubt? I could suggest it's possible we're all completely mental and have no idea about true reality, does that mean we doubt everything in life?

    That's my 2p anyway, it was a bit of a ramble I know, I've just worked a 16 hour shift and needed to think of anything but work. Thank you for reading, feel free to use my own words against me.

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    Registered Member timmy_too_far's Avatar
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    Default Re: Yet more proof of why we should not have the death penalty

    I reckon they shouldnt do the death penalty. Id be furious if someone killed one of my loved ones then got to take the easy way out with a quick death. Id rather they suffered being locked up. At least then if some shred of evidence does come to light that proves them innocent its not too late to get them out.

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